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	<title>Comments on: Power and Privilege in Fantasy</title>
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	<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/</link>
	<description>Orbit Books</description>
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		<title>By: From The Palantir! CONAN Has Its Barbarian and You Too Can Own Serenity &#124; TheTorchOnline.com</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3072</link>
		<dc:creator>From The Palantir! CONAN Has Its Barbarian and You Too Can Own Serenity &#124; TheTorchOnline.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 06:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3072</guid>
		<description>[...] writer N.K. Jemisin has written a blog about some of the disturbing themes that appear in fantasy novels and movies, from inherited power (of the royal kind) to inherited [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] writer N.K. Jemisin has written a blog about some of the disturbing themes that appear in fantasy novels and movies, from inherited power (of the royal kind) to inherited [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Max Gladstone</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3055</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Gladstone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3055</guid>
		<description>Hi Nora,

Thanks for your reply!  I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m worthy of calling myself a &quot;worldbuilding geek&quot; maybe (I lack the patience required to construct robust languages, for example), but I try to get things right, which so far has entailed a lot of reading up on economics, politics, history, philosophy, postcolonial theory, etc.  Creating a world without falling into easy trope-traps like &quot;those guys are evil&quot; takes a lot of work and involves confronting a lot of moral ambiguity on the Earth we inhabit than most folks (me) tend to do on a daily basis.

It&#039;s heartening to hear that even someone at your comparatively advanced stage of the writing career has to work to identify &amp; overcome &quot;points of irrationality&quot; (nice phrasing, by the way).  I do the same thing, and it&#039;s good to have a reminder that it&#039;s both a constant and a worthwhile task.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nora,</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply!  I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m worthy of calling myself a &#8220;worldbuilding geek&#8221; maybe (I lack the patience required to construct robust languages, for example), but I try to get things right, which so far has entailed a lot of reading up on economics, politics, history, philosophy, postcolonial theory, etc.  Creating a world without falling into easy trope-traps like &#8220;those guys are evil&#8221; takes a lot of work and involves confronting a lot of moral ambiguity on the Earth we inhabit than most folks (me) tend to do on a daily basis.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s heartening to hear that even someone at your comparatively advanced stage of the writing career has to work to identify &amp; overcome &#8220;points of irrationality&#8221; (nice phrasing, by the way).  I do the same thing, and it&#8217;s good to have a reminder that it&#8217;s both a constant and a worthwhile task.</p>
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		<title>By: N. K. Jemisin</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3051</link>
		<dc:creator>N. K. Jemisin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3051</guid>
		<description>Hi Eric,

Taking your points by number:

1) I&#039;m not reviewing anything, and I didn&#039;t say I was.  I was stating why I did or didn&#039;t want to see two films, based on the available information I&#039;d seen (at the time of this post, almost a month ago), and my own values.  It&#039;s the same conversation every moviegoer has, if only in the silence of their own head:  do I want to go see this movie?  Why or why not?  I&#039;m just having that conversation publicly, in writing.

2) I&#039;m talking about specific kinds of fantasies (note the words &quot;a lot of fantasies&quot; and &quot;those fantasies which&quot;) which have a particular problem.  Obviously there are fantasies which don&#039;t have this problem.  They&#039;re not the ones I&#039;m talking about.

3) Dude, you&#039;re reading this on a publisher&#039;s blog.  &lt;em&gt;Everything you see here&lt;/em&gt;, explicitly or implicitly, is an advertisement.  What were you expecting, impartial journalism?  You need a news site for that.

And you really &lt;em&gt;shouldn&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; trust me, you know.  I&#039;m a fiction writer; I tell lies for a living.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Eric,</p>
<p>Taking your points by number:</p>
<p>1) I&#8217;m not reviewing anything, and I didn&#8217;t say I was.  I was stating why I did or didn&#8217;t want to see two films, based on the available information I&#8217;d seen (at the time of this post, almost a month ago), and my own values.  It&#8217;s the same conversation every moviegoer has, if only in the silence of their own head:  do I want to go see this movie?  Why or why not?  I&#8217;m just having that conversation publicly, in writing.</p>
<p>2) I&#8217;m talking about specific kinds of fantasies (note the words &#8220;a lot of fantasies&#8221; and &#8220;those fantasies which&#8221;) which have a particular problem.  Obviously there are fantasies which don&#8217;t have this problem.  They&#8217;re not the ones I&#8217;m talking about.</p>
<p>3) Dude, you&#8217;re reading this on a publisher&#8217;s blog.  <em>Everything you see here</em>, explicitly or implicitly, is an advertisement.  What were you expecting, impartial journalism?  You need a news site for that.</p>
<p>And you really <em>shouldn&#8217;t</em> trust me, you know.  I&#8217;m a fiction writer; I tell lies for a living.  <img src='http://www.orbitbooks.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sean Meaney</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3050</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Meaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 01:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3050</guid>
		<description>AVATAR wasnt that great...Mining a world for Unobtanium just because it floats in defiance of gravity...OK maybe they would do that. It struck me as odd that Corporations would not listen to the scientists in their employ as to the economic benifits of may be the way the Alien Plants caused the crystalization of that mineral in deposits...or that they could clean up the environment at home by exporting a network sentient ecosystem to earth or that a cylinder full of Algae might be a more efficient computer than etched diamond. I&#039;m sure Bill Gates the Fifth wants his floating Palace above the Planet of New Microsoft.
I did notice it carried that age old pretty girl in the terrorist cell/communist political party recruits fence-sitter guy who was just going with the Status Quo because the Perks are better by fondling his psychological wedding tackle Plot.

As to the Eugenics comment with Wizards having inherited power, considering a small percentage of us can see further into the UV spectrum than others (From Personal experience -It really gives violet some serious &#039;depth&#039;), the idea that some humans represent an &#039;unsustainable and inferior genome&#039; is real. Extinction is real. It happens - even for the Human Race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AVATAR wasnt that great&#8230;Mining a world for Unobtanium just because it floats in defiance of gravity&#8230;OK maybe they would do that. It struck me as odd that Corporations would not listen to the scientists in their employ as to the economic benifits of may be the way the Alien Plants caused the crystalization of that mineral in deposits&#8230;or that they could clean up the environment at home by exporting a network sentient ecosystem to earth or that a cylinder full of Algae might be a more efficient computer than etched diamond. I&#8217;m sure Bill Gates the Fifth wants his floating Palace above the Planet of New Microsoft.<br />
I did notice it carried that age old pretty girl in the terrorist cell/communist political party recruits fence-sitter guy who was just going with the Status Quo because the Perks are better by fondling his psychological wedding tackle Plot.</p>
<p>As to the Eugenics comment with Wizards having inherited power, considering a small percentage of us can see further into the UV spectrum than others (From Personal experience -It really gives violet some serious &#8216;depth&#8217;), the idea that some humans represent an &#8216;unsustainable and inferior genome&#8217; is real. Extinction is real. It happens &#8211; even for the Human Race.</p>
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		<title>By: N. K. Jemisin</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3049</link>
		<dc:creator>N. K. Jemisin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 00:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3049</guid>
		<description>Max,

&lt;em&gt;do you feel you spend a great deal of time &amp; effort examining your work to see where (or if) your subconscious is tipping its hand?&lt;/em&gt;

I do, but I kind of do that anyway, since I&#039;m a psychologist in my dayjob.  Obsessive self-examination is a job hazard.  ^_-

But even so, in the last few years I&#039;ve been doing a lot more examination of the ways in which my background/culture informs my work -- more sociology than psychology, with some economics and other stuff thrown in.  I think that&#039;s mostly because I&#039;m a worldbuilding geek; I&#039;m fascinated by alternative societies and also how our own society got the way it was.  I try to recognize patterns and build those into my created societies.  And I try to recognize and avoid points of irrationality -- for example, my tendency to default to male characters, thanks to growing up in a sexist society -- though I&#039;m still working on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max,</p>
<p><em>do you feel you spend a great deal of time &amp; effort examining your work to see where (or if) your subconscious is tipping its hand?</em></p>
<p>I do, but I kind of do that anyway, since I&#8217;m a psychologist in my dayjob.  Obsessive self-examination is a job hazard.  ^_-</p>
<p>But even so, in the last few years I&#8217;ve been doing a lot more examination of the ways in which my background/culture informs my work &#8212; more sociology than psychology, with some economics and other stuff thrown in.  I think that&#8217;s mostly because I&#8217;m a worldbuilding geek; I&#8217;m fascinated by alternative societies and also how our own society got the way it was.  I try to recognize patterns and build those into my created societies.  And I try to recognize and avoid points of irrationality &#8212; for example, my tendency to default to male characters, thanks to growing up in a sexist society &#8212; though I&#8217;m still working on that.</p>
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		<title>By: N. K. Jemisin</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3048</link>
		<dc:creator>N. K. Jemisin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 00:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3048</guid>
		<description>Tatterfoal,

Thanks for the links!  I&#039;ll check them out when I get a chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tatterfoal,</p>
<p>Thanks for the links!  I&#8217;ll check them out when I get a chance.</p>
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		<title>By: N. K. Jemisin</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3047</link>
		<dc:creator>N. K. Jemisin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 00:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3047</guid>
		<description>Daniel,

I was pleased with &quot;Daybreakers&quot; too.  The instant that I saw the first starving vampire, the beggar with the &quot;will work for blood&quot; sign, I was happy, because I knew the movie wasn&#039;t going to gloss over classism or economic privilege.  And the subplot between Sam Neill&#039;s character and his daughter -- his attempt to impose his will on her, and its backfire -- made the movie for me, far more than the rest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel,</p>
<p>I was pleased with &#8220;Daybreakers&#8221; too.  The instant that I saw the first starving vampire, the beggar with the &#8220;will work for blood&#8221; sign, I was happy, because I knew the movie wasn&#8217;t going to gloss over classism or economic privilege.  And the subplot between Sam Neill&#8217;s character and his daughter &#8212; his attempt to impose his will on her, and its backfire &#8212; made the movie for me, far more than the rest.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3045</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3045</guid>
		<description>I have a few problems with this article.

1) You start out by essentially reviewing two movies you haven&#039;t even seen. Don&#039;t try to tell me you were making a point about marketing, because you explicitly refer to the films themselves when you say one tries to do a good job and one doesn&#039;t.

2) You use the word &quot;fantasy&quot; to refer only to the epic sword-and-sorcery Tolkien derivatives with magic and kings, neatly leaving out brilliant writers like Neil Gaiman, Kelly Link, Angela Carter, Ray Bradbury, Joe Hill, Clive Barker, etc. etc.--authors that do not by and large use any of the tropes you mention.

3) The rest of the article plays out like a thinly veiled advertisement for your books. I understand and empathize with a writer who wants to get the word out about her novels any way she can, but disguising an infomercial as critical analysis leaves the reader feeling like they&#039;ve been bullshitted. If you&#039;re going to sell us on how great your books are and why we should read them, you have to put that on Front Street; otherwise, we get to the end of the article feeling like we can&#039;t trust you.

In response to S.V. Rowle, who said, “You also touched on something dear to my heart — heroines who have to *earn* their place in history as opposed to ones who inherit it. That bugs the hell out of me in fiction. Why is Harry Potter so freaking special? I love the guy, but seriously. Destiny is what you make of it.”

Er, did you even read the series? It’s very clear that Harry must grow and change to meet his destiny; it’s not handed to him on a silver platter. One of the many touches I found so brilliant about that series is that Harry isn’t the smartest wizard, or even the most talented (that would probably be Hermione); he’s just been thrust into something almost completely against his will and now either has to stand up to meet the challenge or let the entire magical (and Muggle) world fall prey to an evil tyrant. He’s a victim of circumstance, not a recipient of any particular genetic gift. And he definitely gets by with a little help from his friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a few problems with this article.</p>
<p>1) You start out by essentially reviewing two movies you haven&#8217;t even seen. Don&#8217;t try to tell me you were making a point about marketing, because you explicitly refer to the films themselves when you say one tries to do a good job and one doesn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>2) You use the word &#8220;fantasy&#8221; to refer only to the epic sword-and-sorcery Tolkien derivatives with magic and kings, neatly leaving out brilliant writers like Neil Gaiman, Kelly Link, Angela Carter, Ray Bradbury, Joe Hill, Clive Barker, etc. etc.&#8211;authors that do not by and large use any of the tropes you mention.</p>
<p>3) The rest of the article plays out like a thinly veiled advertisement for your books. I understand and empathize with a writer who wants to get the word out about her novels any way she can, but disguising an infomercial as critical analysis leaves the reader feeling like they&#8217;ve been bullshitted. If you&#8217;re going to sell us on how great your books are and why we should read them, you have to put that on Front Street; otherwise, we get to the end of the article feeling like we can&#8217;t trust you.</p>
<p>In response to S.V. Rowle, who said, “You also touched on something dear to my heart — heroines who have to *earn* their place in history as opposed to ones who inherit it. That bugs the hell out of me in fiction. Why is Harry Potter so freaking special? I love the guy, but seriously. Destiny is what you make of it.”</p>
<p>Er, did you even read the series? It’s very clear that Harry must grow and change to meet his destiny; it’s not handed to him on a silver platter. One of the many touches I found so brilliant about that series is that Harry isn’t the smartest wizard, or even the most talented (that would probably be Hermione); he’s just been thrust into something almost completely against his will and now either has to stand up to meet the challenge or let the entire magical (and Muggle) world fall prey to an evil tyrant. He’s a victim of circumstance, not a recipient of any particular genetic gift. And he definitely gets by with a little help from his friends.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Helton</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3042</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Helton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3042</guid>
		<description>Anyone try Sarah Ash?  In her Tears of Artamon trilogy, the world is populated by very human characters, and while the majority of the story is told from the perspective those in power (minor nobles on up to an emperor), the author manages to capture how the decisions that these powerful people make affect those who have to live under the various systems imposed on them.  It may not present a formidable challenge to the Fantasy status quo, but one thing I can appreciate is that the heroes are fully human (even if there are supernatural agents that may or may not be driving them), and there are few elements of objective good or evil present in the series.  Moral ambiguity is what I see lacking in Fantasy, because nothing challenges our own assumptions more effectively than discovering the nuance behind the decisions of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone try Sarah Ash?  In her Tears of Artamon trilogy, the world is populated by very human characters, and while the majority of the story is told from the perspective those in power (minor nobles on up to an emperor), the author manages to capture how the decisions that these powerful people make affect those who have to live under the various systems imposed on them.  It may not present a formidable challenge to the Fantasy status quo, but one thing I can appreciate is that the heroes are fully human (even if there are supernatural agents that may or may not be driving them), and there are few elements of objective good or evil present in the series.  Moral ambiguity is what I see lacking in Fantasy, because nothing challenges our own assumptions more effectively than discovering the nuance behind the decisions of others.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Savage</title>
		<link>http://www.orbitbooks.net/2009/12/28/power-and-privilege-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-3040</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.orbitbooks.net/?p=6154#comment-3040</guid>
		<description>I think fantasy has many problems for people because fantasy to a large extent has been based on tropes and assumptions taken from legends, tales, myth, etc.  Science-fiction at least has some history in the speculative and thus the analytical, so even the worst of it may have some cause-effect or exploration.  Fantasy, not having that foundation, can fall into some tropes (and offensive ones as noted) much easier.

Thus I enjoy what I call &quot;speculative fantasy&quot; which the Inheritance Trilogy promises to be - looking at fantasy worlds through more the eyes of cause-effect than Following The Legend.  After all, if I can throw fireballs and people can make potions that heal any wounds, is the world REALLY going to be some Renaissance Faire re-enactment, or something FAR different and more alien?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think fantasy has many problems for people because fantasy to a large extent has been based on tropes and assumptions taken from legends, tales, myth, etc.  Science-fiction at least has some history in the speculative and thus the analytical, so even the worst of it may have some cause-effect or exploration.  Fantasy, not having that foundation, can fall into some tropes (and offensive ones as noted) much easier.</p>
<p>Thus I enjoy what I call &#8220;speculative fantasy&#8221; which the Inheritance Trilogy promises to be &#8211; looking at fantasy worlds through more the eyes of cause-effect than Following The Legend.  After all, if I can throw fireballs and people can make potions that heal any wounds, is the world REALLY going to be some Renaissance Faire re-enactment, or something FAR different and more alien?</p>
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